Council on Foreign Relations, NYC, Thursday, Sept 26, 2024.

Click red arrow to begin with Lucy’s question.

Q: Hello. I’m Lucy Komisar. I’m a journalist.

I wanted to ask whether any of these things had led to the situation now: First, the NATO expansion to the east, against the promise made to Gorbachev. The support of the 2014 coup against an elected government of Ukraine because it wanted an economic deal with Russia instead of the EU. Eight years of Ukraine bombing the breakaway Donbas of Russia(n) speakers who were opposed to the coup. And then the U.S. supporting the military that ended up on the border, about to invade, in the Donbas that caused the Russian invasion. Did any of this happen? And by the way, you mentioned the Minsk Accords, and those were violated because the U.S. and the U.K. told Zelensky don’t do it. So it seems to me, from my vantage point, that NATO and the U.S. have been using this war as a proxy war against the Russians, and the poor Ukrainians have been the cannon fodder.

MOHYELDIN: Thank you so much for the question. (Ayman Mohyeldin works for MSNBC.)

STOLTENBERG: First, on the issue of whether NATO ever promised not to enlarge or to allow new members after the end of the Cold War, I’ve seen, you know, people saying that that’s the case. First, it was never promised. It was never an agreement. And if so, it must have—

Q: The U.S., not NATO. The U.S.

STOLTENBERG: Ah. But the U.S. discussed that possibility with Russia back in 1990, but when they agreed—and two things. That was about the unification of Germany. It was not about any enlargement of NATO beyond Germany, because then we still had the Warsaw Pact and that was not the issue at all. It was unification of East and West Germany.

It was based on whatever. Out of all the reports and everything I read about that is that, yes, it was an issue that was discussed, but when they had the four-party agreement facilitating the unification, there were no provisions about that East Germany cannot be part of NATO.

So when the deal was made, it was not in the deal. So, yes, maybe it was discussed, but it was not part of the deal that allowed the unification of Germany. So that’s the first thing to say. It’s a bit strange to say that something has been agreed when actually, in the agreement that was signed by also Russia at that time, or Soviet Union, there were no provision against East Germany becoming part of NATO when Germany was unified.

Second, this idea has been used against any NATO enlargement. And that has been not an issue at all, meaning that it has never been in any document or any negotiation that we should deny Poland, Lithuania, the Baltic countries and so on, any right to join the alliance.

And NATO and Russia signed something called the Founding Act. That was in ’97, I think. And that’s about how we can work together. Nothing about no enlargement of NATO. So it is a bit strange that, in one way, there should be a kind of secret deal, and especially if it was the U.S. and Russia deciding that Poland cannot become a NATO ally. Which right has they to deny Poland that? Poland is a sovereign, independent nation. They can—they can choose their own path. No one can deny them that.

So I think this is about—this is really about the sovereign right of every nation to choose their own path. And I mentioned Norway. Again, we are happy that no one tried to deny us that right. We were then the only country bordering Russia, and Russia had the same kind of rhetoric: this is a threat. It was not a threat. And Poland, the Baltic countries joining, it’s the democratic right of these countries.

Then—(laughs)—all the statements that you had about the war in Ukraine, there have been—

Q: A coup in 2014.

STOLTENBERG: It was not a coup. It was the Ukrainians that didn’t want to be coerced from agreeing—an agreement with the European Union. And since then, there have been several elections in Ukraine where they have elected people—the last one now is President Zelensky—with a clear message of an independent Ukraine and, actually, a Ukraine that wants to join NATO. If you look at the election results, if you look at the opinion polls, Ukraine is a country that wants to join EU, wants to join NATO, and they have the right to do so. And Russia invaded to prevent that from happening.

(Stoltenberg’s ten-year term as NATO Secretary General ended Oct 1st.)